Don't Place Religious and Civil Law on A Level Footing
A topic which frequently comes up in debates about separation of church and state is the application of religious laws. This especially occurs where Islam is involved, as Islam is probably unique among all the major religions in its prescription of specific laws, and the edict (or at least, as fundamentalist Muslims understand it) to enforce these religious laws.
One novel argument that I recently heard used by a Muslim was that if the law is to be fair to all religions, it should apply the laws of all religions. If a Muslim gambles, he should be punished; if a Catholic does not observe Lent, she should be punished; and so forth.
The obvious flaw here is that if you place these religious laws on the same footing as civil law, you very quickly end up in the stickiest of situations. For instance, what religious laws ought to apply? Should the hudud, the Muslim criminal code, be applied? Are we to chop off the hands of thieves?
Or, to take an extreme example, should we recognise the right of Satanists or cultists to conduct perverse rituals such as human sacrifices? The obvious answer seems to be no — and yet the only way to justify banning such extreme behaviour is to hold that the civil law is superior to religious law, and that only religious laws consistent with the civil law can be applied. This effectively defeats the point of having separate religious legal systems.
Another argument posed is that if someone wants to submit themselves to a particular system of laws, they should be free to do so. All well and good — but should the public — that is, non-adherents of this religion — be paying taxes to fund the enforcement of the laws of a religion they don't believe in?
If someone wants to voluntarily submit themselves to an Islamic court or a Christian court or a Wiccan court, it's up to them. But that court should not be funded by non-Muslims/non-Christians/non-Wiccans, and should not be endorsed by the state, which exists to serve people of all religions.
Fundamentalist Muslims often throw up their hands when they have no other argument to use, and declare that it is their imperative as true Muslims to fight for the enforcement of Islamic law over other Muslims. Although it's difficult (if not impossible) to rebutt the logic of the fact that religion is a personal relationship between man and God, and is not something that anyone, including the state, has a right to interfere in, these Muslims say that their holy book tells them to defy logic, and thus that is what they will do.
It is hard to argue then, when there are not even logical premises in common. Nevertheless, I believe that at some point, this impasse will be resolved. After all, for centuries, the Christians believed that their religion was to be the state religion, and that therefore they would impose its laws. If you told them that the Bible says nothing about this, they would probably condemn you as a vile heretic and burn you at the stake.
Similarly, I have my doubts that the fundamentalist interpretation of the Quran can succeed in withstanding the test of time. It is not a question of if it will break down, but when. After all, many Muslims in the west have accepted that Islamic laws need not be applied by the state; many liberals can argue very well that there is no edict in the Quran to fight for state enforcement of Islamic law.
In Malaysia, perhaps, it is impractical to sever the bonds between mosque and state. It may even be infeasible to do away with the injustices that result from the parallel legal systems of Syariah and civil law. But it is simply logically impossible — speaking as an objective observer, and not as a Christian or Muslim or Taoist or what have you — to defend placing religious law on the same standing as the civil law.
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johnleemk
Infernally Rambling Thoughtless Mind Head Administrator Posts: 953 IP Logged | Posted at 12:53:00 pm Oct 23, 2005
So lately I've been arguing politics on a certain blog. (Yes, I know the blogger's writings are a bit off-putting at first, but after a while you get used to the weirdness.) Anyway, I've made rather long-ish posts here, here and here. Now, it seems that in the latter, I pushed somebody's buttons when I argued against the implementation of hudud laws (which provide for amputation and stoning for certain crimes; PAS tried to implement them in Kelantan and Terengganu, but it turns out only the federal government can make hudud law; PAS also stated it would eventually make hudud laws apply to non-Muslims, so there goes the usual argument in favour of it). Now, what I would like to know is just how much we here value separation of religion and state. In the US, this is pretty much sacrosanct, although a few Republicans would beg to differ. In the UK, although the Anglican Church is officially the Church of England, it raises all its funds privately, without government aid. Here in Malaysia, our ringgit subsidises the construction and maintenance of mosques and syariah courts. Now, I don't mind this arrangement, especially since our implementation of syariah law (which varies from state to state) tends to be humane. With the hudud, I find amputation in particular barbaric (even if the Quran mandates it). Stoning is also a cruel and unusual punishment, I would say, especially considering it can be quite slow. (In Terengganu, PAS stated that "medium-sized stones" would be used.) Even if hudud would not be made applicable to non-Muslims, I would still protest it, because I believe all Malaysians should be equal under the law (as the constitution states) and I believe I must stand up for Malaysians, even if they are not of my religion. There are two common defenses used by fundamentalist Muslims to rebutt this argument. The first is that this is none of my business because it only affects Muslims. As I said, anything done by the government that affects Malaysians is our business. The second rebuttal used is that "we don't protest against your religion's rules, so why are you doing so?" Well, it's one thing to follow the rules of your religion. It's another to make it law that all people who profess to follow your religion must follow the same rules you do. (By the way, do you guys think I should put any of my further responses here instead of on that other blog? I think it's often standard practice amongst bloggers to carry out debates in this manner...) |
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no_game
Member Posts: 182 IP Logged | Posted at 11:37:49 am Nov 21, 2005
Uhh John this their country let them do w/e they want.As if by talking like this we can prevent anything from happening. |
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chickster
Member Posts: 168 IP Logged | Posted at 4:36:26 am Nov 22, 2005
lol ya malaysia belongz 2 d malayz ^_^ |
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johnleemk
Infernally Rambling Thoughtless Mind Head Administrator Posts: 953 IP Logged | Posted at 4:14:24 am Nov 24, 2005
Uh...as long as our IC is blue, we're Malaysian citizens. We ostensibly live in a democracy, so we're supposed to be able to speak our views, as citizens of Malaysia. |
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megat
Member Posts: 2 IP Logged | Posted at 6:13:28 pm Mar 20, 2009
although i understand your view and distaste to the hudud law. But it is unfair for you to comment on something in which i think is not your area of expertise. Your argument is that hudud law is barbaric and inhumane. That the amputation of hand in cases of theft is to you something which is excessive and uncalled for. But you failed to realize that the amputation of hands in cases of theft is not done arbitrarily. Hudud law is the Islamic version of a capital punishment. Like other capital punishment the mode of evidence, or element that need to be prove before a a man's hand to be amputated are very high. One need to prove dominion over the property or that the theft is done secretively and many other facets of law that you did not realize. So like other capital punishment, the high burden of proof makes it very hard to actually convict someone of a hudud crime. But then you may argue that, after all it is still just a mere case of theft. Why the need for such a heavy punishment? Well in Islam theft are a serious crime. It is extremely repugnant and immoral. But what you are proposing is that we should not think as theft or any other crimes that is prescribed as hudud crimes as a heinous act. You are saying that we should change the very facet or fundamentals of our religion because you do not agree with it? In other words you are saying that we should change our view of morality to suit your concept of morality. Isn't that the very essence of fundamentalism? Because you do not think it is right then we muslim should also feel that is not right? I dont see any problem if they do wish to enact hudud laws for muslim. Because as muslim we are indeed bound by it. I dont think it is fair just because it does not conform to your concept of morality or what you think as right it should not be enacted. |
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mimi fakhira
Member Posts: 4 IP Logged | Posted at 4:16:53 am Jun 3, 2009
John, I know that you think some Islamic punishments are 'barbaric' but trust me, the crimes that are done are seriously way MORE barbaric!!! Adultery, theft, murders and many other crimes. Crimes are barbaric and violent so the punishments must suit them. If a woman commits adultery behind her husband's back, is jail and 'sebatan' good enough? What about the husband who loves her, took care of her, working till late night to raise the family? No, she must be punished severely. She knows that crimes are wrong yet she committed it. Not once, more than once!!! That includes theft and murders. Thieves steal things, then they are captured, got whipped and go to jail. When they are released, then what? Some of them may repent, but others? They kept grudges and want to steal again. So cutting of their hands is the best solution. These punishments don't only serve them right, but it is also set as an example so that other people especially the youngsters are afraid to commit these crimes. Everything has a reason... |
