God Can't Be (Dis)Proven
One of the most futile debates you can possibly have is about the existence of God. Unless the argument is purely philosophical, it is bound to end up going nowhere — because God can't be proven empirically.
To prove (or alternately, disprove) the existence of God empirically, the scientific method has to be followed. The first step, naturally, is proposing a hypothesis, i.e. God (does not) exist(s) — depending on whether you're arguing for or against theism, include or exclude the portions in parentheses.
At this very first stage, we run into problems. How do you define God? What definition of God do we use? I think the following definition would probably be acceptable to monotheists:
God is an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being.
Our hypothesis thus becomes:
An omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being (does not) exist(s).Now, let me ask you... Just how on earth do you prove or disprove this hypothesis? If this being is omniscient — all-knowing — it will know we're looking for it. And if it is omnipotent — all-powerful — it can hide itself at will.
The result is that unless this being chooses to reveal itself to us, it is impossible to prove or disprove the hypothesis, since the subject of our experiments will be able to manipulate the evidence at will. Some creationists when confronted with radiocarbon dating argue that God put the dinosaur bones in the ground and artifically backdated them, but in reality we were created 10,000 years ago.
If such is the case, how do you empirically and scientifically prove or disprove God? You definitely can't disprove him, because of this manipulation of the evidence, if there is a God.
At the same time, you can't prove God's existence unless he comes out and issues a statement along the lines of "Hey guys, I'm God. See, I can prove it — I'll just turn this wine to water." Without such hard evidence, all the theists have left going for them is aphorisms like "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." (Intelligent design as a scientific theory is utter bunk — all the proofs of intelligent design are nothing more than critiques of evolutionary theory as it is currently understood, and don't in themselves prove that there is a higher being.)
But what does this failure to prove or disprove God actually bode? Does this mean religion or atheism is pointless, since we can't prove any hypotheses about God's existence or lack of it?
I don't think so. I think there is actually a subtle beauty in our inability to prove God's existence empirically. Being able to prove that God is real would actually be the real death blow for religion.
The point of religion is faith — to believe, not just accept. Being a Christian, I naturally will prefer Biblical authorities, but I'm sure followers of other religions will be able to find passages in their own holy book with similar meanings.
The Bible states "The fool saith in his heart, there is no God" — it does not say "saith in his mind" or "saith in his thoughts". If there is empirical evidence God exists, there is basically no point in believing — you are forced to believe God exists, not because you are convicted in your heart that he is real, but because the evidence is there and you can't run away from it.
Believing because you have to, and believing because you hold a conviction in your heart are two totally different things. As the Bible says, "Even the devils believe [God exists]". Their belief does not save them, because they do not hold a conviction in their heart about God — they just have no choice but to accept God exists.
The fact that God has not given us evidence of his existence is meant to affirm our free will, and to lend our faith a meaning. Hard atheist Richard Dawkins says that if after dying, he finds himself in front of God, he will tell Him, "Not enough evidence, God. Not enough evidence."
But the point of the evidence's absence is to give us a choice, and to make believing truly believing. That is something all people, theists and atheists, have to come to terms with. Trying to empirically prove that God exists, or to disprove his existence, beyond as some mental exercise, is a complete waste of time.
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No Eggs
Member Posts: 12 IP Logged | Posted at 10:28:08 am May 9, 2007
Do you believe in Zeus? Do you believe in Yahweh? Do you believe in Allah? Are they the same as the Christian God? What makes your God the one, and not theirs? So which Gods' existences are we trying to prove? If God is an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being, can i say this "Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his mind?"? The hypothesis you mentioned contradicts itself. |
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whodhellknew
Member Posts: 17 IP Logged | Posted at 9:17:50 pm May 22, 2007
Yeap. The only rational answer within our logical framework is "I don't know". The agnostics have got it right. cheers |
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Timothy
Member Posts: 1 IP Logged | Posted at 11:20:13 pm May 31, 2007
Meaningful beliefs or findings must be "falsifiable". The burden of proof also lies on the person who makes the positive claim. If you assert that X is true, then there must be a claim Y such that if Y were true, then X would be false. For example, if I assert that this pen is blue (X): You can make a claim "the pen is yellow" (Y). Now if Y were indeed true, then my assertion X is false. Any statement that cannot be falsified is essentially meaningless. If I tell you that I have an Invisible Pink Unicorn, then what claims could you make to make my assertion untrue? What if you say "it's invisible, you can't say it's pink" - then I reply "It tells me it is pink, and it always tells the truth. You can't prove it doesnt"? What if you say "it's invisible, but I should be able to touch it" - then I reply "Oh, it's also incorporeal, and it can only be touched by people who believe in it. You can't prove this is not true"? What if you say "There are no other IPUs in the universe, therefore you are lying" - then I reply "You don't know everything about the universe, so you cannot make this claim"? As shown above, any statement rooted in reality MUST be falsifiable to have meaning. Also, the one who makes the positive claim has the burden of proof. It is not up to us to disprove God - it is up to the people who believe in that God to prove his existence, and additionally to provide proof of God's falsifiability. |
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yvoon
Member Posts: 1 IP Logged | Posted at 11:19:18 pm Jul 24, 2008
There Is No God? by Jim Bishop Condensed from Miami Herald Jim Bishop Jim Bishop, popular author of 21 books, including "The Day Christ Died" and "The Day Kennedy Was Shot, " died in 1987. This column, written in the 1960s, was a favorite of his wife Kelly. THERE IS NO GOD? All of the wonders around us are accidental. No almighty hand made a thousand-billion stars. They made themselves. No power keeps them on their steady course. The earth spins itself to keep the oceans from falling off toward the sun. Infants teach themselves to cry when they are hungry or hurt. A small flower invented itself so that we could extract digitalis for sick hearts. The earth gave itself day and night, tilted itself so that we get seasons. Without the magnetic poles man would be unable to navigate the trackless oceans of water and air, but they just grew there. How about the sugar thermostat in the pancreas? It maintains a level of sugar in the blood sufficient for energy. Without it, all of us would fall into a coma and die. Why does snow sit on mountain-tops waiting for the warm spring sun to melt it at just the right time for young crops in farms below to drink? A very lovely accident. The human heart will beat for 70 or 80 years without faltering. How does it get sufficient rest between beats? A kidney will filter poison from the blood, and leave good things alone. How does it know one from the other? Who gave the human tongue flexibility to form words, and a brain to understand them, but denied it to all other animals? Who showed a womb how to take the love of two persons and keep splitting a tiny ovum until, in time, a baby would have the proper number of fingers, eyes and ears and hair in the right places, and come into the world when it is strong enough to sustain life? There is no God? |
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immortalbel
Member Posts: 1 IP Logged | Posted at 2:49:39 am Jul 25, 2008
Google is god... 1) Omniscient - knows almost anything you can think of asking 2) Omnipresent - almost everyone can be answered, anywhere, anytime. Always there for you 3) Answers prayer - each time you pray by doing a search, google answers 4) Immortal - internet will last for a long time and google can't be killed |
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Michael Chick
Member Posts: 7 IP Logged | Posted at 9:20:03 am Jul 29, 2008
Here are some of the newer, albeit a little old by now, postings. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ and also check out: http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/explore/explore.html |
