Infernal Ramblings
A Malaysian Perspective on Politics, Society and Economics

Logical Fallacies and Other Debating Errors

Written by johnleemk on 12:58:30 pm Sep 3, 2006.
Categories:

After spending over five years debating online, one begins seeing patterns in the logical mistakes people tend to make. In cataloguing them, I hope a few people learn a thing or too so I won't encounter as many of these fuck-ups as I might otherwise. Just because you can contort the truth into telling a lie doesn't mean you ought to do it; some day you'll run into a bastard with a stick up his ass like me who'll point out all the flaws in your argument, and it'll collapse like the pile of straw it's made of.

The first and probably most common argument I see is a rebuttal to the statement that X therefore Y. (For instance, I am male, therefore I produce testosterone.) This "stunning" rebuttal typically consists of the statement "But Y does not necessarily imply X!" (Both sexes produce testosterone, except that women produce it in minute quantities.) However, this counter-argument misses the obvious: I never said Y therefore X. I said X therefore Y. I said that males must produce testosterone; I did not say testosterone-producers must be male. This apparently intelligent rebuttal is in reality so weak that it couldn't stand if it was propped up with titanium struts.

The next one is the assumption that correlation implies causation. People see a relation between X and Y, and therefore think that one must cause the other. Take the height of ludicrosity as an example. In one debate with a fundamentalist Muslim, his argument was that Indonesia is a secular state, and has had ethnic cleansing. Therefore, secularism causes ethnic cleansing!

Now, anyone with half a brain can easily object to this argument on the basis that there are a million other factors involved in ethnic cleansing. The debater may also have taken a statistically unrepresentative case; other secular states like the United States have never seen widespread racial genocide. However, all this boils down to one simple thing: correlation does not imply causation.

Take an even stronger example of correlation; states with the largest number of acute medical problems also tend to have the largest number of doctors. Therefore, to cure the disease, is the solution to get rid of the doctors? Common sense would dictate otherwise. Again, correlation should never be taken to imply a causal link between two occurrences.

Now, when it comes to politics, there is another card many love to play, namely the tu qouque (Latin: you too) argument. This rebuttal revolves around insisting that the person condemning X has previously committed X, and therefore the statement is invalid. A good example might be those who claim that Israel has persistently violated UN resolutions, and that therefore Palestine/Lebanon are justified in similarly ignoring the UN. It is obvious that two wrongs don't make a right, but try knocking that into the head of some fanatics.

The last misconception (at least for this round) is the idea that by stretching one's opponent's stance into something absurdly ludicrous, one can disprove the original statement. Take for instance, the statement that not interacting with other cultures tends to cause fanatical intolerance of other cultures. Many will take this to mean that "Not interacting with other cultures will cause one to be fanatically intolerant of other cultures," and then seek to rebutt this strawman by pointing out examples of those who have never interacted with other cultures but yet remain tolerant in their outlook.

Yet again, it is clear that this rebuttal is addressing an argument that has never been made. One cannot discredit a qualified statement by removing the qualifier and pointing out that the new made-up statement is false. Nevertheless, this is what many upon many seem to think is perfectly reasonable.

Compared to many of my past ramblings, this is relatively short. In all probability, it's because I'm sleepy and typing this up at 2AM. Some day, there shall be a part two - some day, I shall summon the neurones to recall just what else peeves me whenever I get into an argument. But till then, dear reader, farewell.


If you'd like to keep informed about updates to the site, consider subscribing to our web feed:

Infernal Ramblings is a Malaysian website focusing on current events and sociopolitical issues. Its articles run the gamut from economics to society to education.

Infernal Ramblings is run by John Lee. For more, see the About section. If you have any questions or comments, do drop him a line.


Comments

Thoughts? Comments? Discuss this and other ramblings at the forums.
(Alternatively, contact the author privately.)

Related comments from forum thread "Federalism and the East Malaysian Question":
johnleemk
Infernally Rambling Thoughtless Mind
Head Administrator
Posts: 948
IP Logged

Posted at 7:20:02 am Jan 10, 2007
The topic of Malaysia's nature as a federation and the status of Sabah and Sarawak in the polity is quite an interesting and controversial one. I've written about it a number of times, most recently here. What do you think about the status of the states in Malaysia, especially Sabah and Sarawak? Do you believe we should move towards a more unified state with less powers given to the states, or should we act to devolve more powers to the states? I've had my say - what's your five sen?
Last five replies (4 comments not shown):
marvin
Member
Posts: 6
IP Logged
Posted at 10:34:29 am Jan 11, 2007
Hi again,


True, there's nothing East Malaysia can do about the racial politics of the peninsula. That's up to the people of the peninsula itself. That's why, until this happens, there is no way Sabah would fully adopt these extreme racial politics and be "the same" with the peninsula states. Even if we were forced to, it would be with huge modifications, more races, the pie gets cut into more pieces. And that in turn, wouldn't suit West Malaysia. There's no way the federal government could govern Sabah with the same policies used to govern say Johor. Adding to this is the fact that more and more sub ethnic group would want to want to distinguish themselves as another single difference race and demand a separate share. For example, sub groups such as the Iranuns are considered to be part of the Bajau community but if there was to be a strict racial policy, they would want a certain percentage for themselves instead of being part of the Bajau entity for fear of being discriminated. If we consider all sub ethnic group, there would be up to 50 races in Sabah alone (I don't even recognise all myself). And each has will create their own arguments to distinguish themselves from the others, whether its language(not dialect) or something else, if needed they'll find it, Everybody becomes a racist and start rambling about who are the first settlers and who are the pendatangs. Now, that's how a racist Sabah would look like.

Hence the only way to create a workable and functional (despite difference in political nature) union with the whole nation is a federation between Sabah, Sarawak and the peninsula or federation of the peninsula and the Borneo states (as one entity). The only difference between the state of Selangor and Sabah being only the certain amount of autonomy granted to the latter and not that we demand to be superior to the peninsula states. It's just so that we wouldn't want to have to give up our extra autonomy to just be on par with peninsula states. It doesn't even matter if the peninsula states status are elevated to form the Malaysian federation of 13 states and the territories, as long as Sabah gets to keep its autonomy and do without the racial thing as much as possible until the time comes when race is no longer an issue.

johnleemk
Infernally Rambling Thoughtless Mind
Head Administrator
Posts: 948
IP Logged
Posted at 9:29:24 am Jan 12, 2007
That's why, until this happens, there is no way Sabah would fully adopt these extreme racial politics and be "the same" with the peninsula states.
I don't think I suggested homogenising the states - did I? It is possible to consider oneself a Malaysian and still maintain a separate individual identity. (I specifically use the word individual because maintaining a separate collective identity would result in the race-based and state-based cliques we have today. I actually wrote a bit about this a couple of years ago.)

Hence the only way to create a workable and functional (despite difference in political nature) union with the whole nation is a federation between Sabah, Sarawak and the peninsula or federation of the peninsula and the Borneo states (as one entity).
If the only factor we are considering is racial politics, then yes. But looking at the question in terms of administrative efficiency, I think the federation should not treat the West Malaysian states as homogenous (at least politically).

Although culturally and historically speaking, the Peninsula is quite homogenous, when we speak in terms of administrative efficiency, it is very difficult to maintain an efficient administrative regime for such a large area as the Peninsula, encompassing about 20 million people. The separate states provide a convenient means of devolving power to state and local governments, in order to permit local administrative issues to be decided by individual localities.
azrael
Member
Posts: 9
IP Logged
Posted at 2:58:34 pm Dec 21, 2007
West Malaysia has 11 states which house 9 Sultans, that's why the Peninsular needs more money. :)

As for the East Malaysians, they obviously need less money because their concerns are that of their forests; sago, timber, pineapples, pepper and orang utans. The place where 14.4kbps dial-up is all the rage, starry eyed when approaching Kuala Lumpur City Centre. :)
theXopnions
Member
Posts: 1
IP Logged
Posted at 4:37:06 pm Jun 25, 2008
Just wanna inform you this blog has been officially nominated as a candidate for …

The Greatest Malaysian Blog – BLOGGER (English) B
(http://thexopinions.blogspot.com/2008/06/greatest-malaysian-blog-blogger-english_19.html)

YOUR OPINION COUNTS!

Message from:
the X opinions (http://thexopinions.blogspot.com/)

Mjbrittan
Member
Posts: 1
IP Logged
Posted at 3:43:33 am Jun 26, 2008
Locals and foreigners tell me that Sarawak and Sabah should get out of Malaysia. I tend to think in that same vein when I heard or read about the discrimination against people of those said states. We may no longer ruled by the British except that we are now under the thumb of the Federal government - West Malaysia to be specific. No difference!

I always advocate freedom of religion and religion should have no place in politics. At least, IMHO, there should never be laws that prevent one from converting out of or into another religion. Or not belong to any organized religion at all. After all, religions are made up by men. But again, that's just my thought and mine alone.


Latest:
A New Malaysian Government May Be On Its Way
Popular:
Change From Within? Not Likely

Most Recently Read

  1. Islamic Country, Islamic State?
  2. Absolute Poverty in Malaysia
  3. Anwar Our Best and Only Chance for Justice and Equality for Everyone
  4. Change From Within? Not Likely
  5. Analysing the Beatles' Success
  6. Song - Real Love
  7. Civil Law and Common Law
  8. Malaysian Demographics: Ridiculous Population Growth
  9. Realising an Independent Nation in Malaysia
  10. Anwar and Altantuya, Twin Miscarriages of Justice
Google
Latest active forum topics
Quoth the webserver...
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
— George Bernard Shaw
Poll
Sorry, only registered users may vote. Please register or login.

There are currently no polls running.