Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: [locked]15 year old drops out and whaps Malaysia
What are your views on this guy? Background: 15 yr old, "jaded" by the system of education in Malaysia, dropped out of school and is now pursuing O-Levels in a college somewhere intending to apply to college in America.
I give it that he has confidence..too much almost, but I personally take offence at much of what he says. While some of it may be veritable criticism, i find his methods wrong. To post something like this on an american forum where most of them are ignorant of our system anyway. To generalize about all of our graduate being incapable to think due to incapitation by our education system. To criticize bumputra rights without any prior research and citation. But personally, i am mad not so much because of all this but simply because despite its flaws i feel some degree of loyalty to Malaysia and this guy with his immature rants (in my opinion only...) has touched a raw nerve. Read below, the first one is what offends my sensibilities the most. The third one is a chapter of the book he intends to "publish".
What do you think? I'm really interested to know. If you don't wanna post this here, PM me, i'll give u my email add. I don't put it up because i got a lot of spam before.
Joined: Mar 21, 2004 Posts: 1211 Location: Blacksburg , US
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:37 am Post subject:
He has *some* of the facts right. But in the end he is just another deserter. He speaks the truth in some sense, but interprets it in his own context. I admire him for his courage, yet at the same time disappointed in his disdain for anything Malaysian.
Change in the system is necessary, but cannot be done overnight. As Dr. M said, its time to speak up when you see something is wrong, and not run away and hide.
Quote:
To generalize about all of our graduate being incapable to think due to incapitation by our education system.
He is right on this one tho. I did not know how to think outside my box until i was exposed to the American system, where i had to swim or sink. Even Malaysian professors that i have met in the US told me that their final year students cannot take a real life scenario and relate it to their theory without obvious guidance.
Joined: Mar 11, 2005 Posts: 397 Location: Bordeaux
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:08 am Post subject:
johnleemk...
saw his posts at Lim Kit Siang, Jeff Ooi, Bakri Musa etc etc I never though he was a 15 year old kid...(if you are reading this and you happen to be johnleemk, take this as a compliment)
About his views on Malaysian education system, I tend to agree with most of what he thinks...just that the decision he takes is a courageous one, and I do wish him good luck.
Joined: Jul 20, 2004 Posts: 380 Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:59 am Post subject:
from the way i see it, he may be saying the right thing but a WRONG place. why would you want to talk those issues in such forums to begin with? i believe issue regarding malaysia should be said amongst us, and not to the whole world. yes, malaysia has issues but that does not mean we should let the whole world knows...
im looking at it from two perspectives - tourism and practicality. talking stuff like that simply tarnishes the country's image. him and noh (on the naked women issue) are simply siblings in potraying negative images about malaysia an shun tourist away. from the practical point of view, he aint achieving anything neither will the system change as a results from such forums. there places where he can simply bring up the points and argue/debate/discuss about it - where i believe in a long run, may benefit malaysia (as in creating awareness amongst us that BN suxx). talk about it here, for instance. at least, whatever his points are, may educate the 'blind' recommers on the real truth about malaysia. hence, may actually benefit the country itself...
to conclude, i agree with naoj that
Quote:
While some of it may be veritable criticism, i find his methods wrong.
he's destroying our country's image just like the police abuse case?
please. all he's seeking is equality in a land he was born. Why should you be patriotic to a country that treats you like a second class citizen?
I went through all the same things when I was looking at where to study after my SPM. Racism is alive and well in msia. I stared at racism's ugly face and decided I wanted none of that. That's how I ended up studying in the states and it looks like that book smart 15 yr old kid will do the same.
there's nothing wrong with being ambitious and asking to be treated fairly.
I can't believe that I (of all people) will say this but....
Not everything that the opposition says is good, not everything that the government says is bad.
I fully agree the criticisms against the malaysian government - yes, I think that we are treated like second class citizens - but, really, the opposition is not much better either. The only good thing the opposition has done is to keep a check on the current government. That's why my vote lies with our opposition (and by which I mean, our current opposition leader). BUT BUT BUT.... here's the very fine and extremely important distinction between johnlee and I: I don't vote for the opposition because of their opinions. They don't have a certain definitive opinion, in fact, they don't have ANY opinion whatsoever, with the exception of: Goverment proposal= bad. Their writings are just ... rantings, knee-jerk reactions to whatever the government does (have you read Aliran Monthly?). Like angry uneducated xanga entries.
Yes, there are people who worship BN, but these people are no better than people who worship the opposition eg. mr. johnleemk who seems to be embarking on a full-fledged idolization of Lim Kit Siang (look at the quotes, the comments, the posts...)
I just want to make this clear, I appreciate all that kit siang has done for politics, for the opposition. But that doesn't mean I have to follow anyone blindly - government or opposition.
Joined: Nov 11, 2003 Posts: 1379 Location: Athens, OH
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:34 am Post subject:
disclaimer: i have not read the posts in question. for some reason my browser won't load the pages.
all i want to say is that whenever the urge to feel victimized becomes too strong, we should all take a course in economic development. or pick up a book on poverty around the globe or something. it can be a very sobering experience. it may even make us count our blessings. you know, reality check.
i am not saying that malaysia doesn't have its warts. of course it does. however, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and diatribe. i know citizens of singapore who notwithstanding their tremendous purchasing power and "first class" status still want to migrate to the West because, well, it is plain human nature to seek MORE opportunities as long as they exist.
frankly i think it is disingeneous to constantly cry discrimination and racism (i am NOT saying that it does not exist; we all know it does) because if you think that you will be better off in a rich advanced country, you WILL find your way there regardless. just don't keep claiming that "i am leaving the country because i am not wanted". that's just self-righteous bullshit.
we should give ourselves more credit; for a 48 year-old nation with such disparate groups of inhabitants we are doing just fine, by almost any measure.
Joined: Mar 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:12 am Post subject:
He is primarily having a go at our education system.
I agree that our system is flawed. The thing is, if you didn't make it in the system, it isn't all down to the system. There are many many students who have gone on to become successful; these students being the product of this very flawed system.
Thus, if you couldn't make the cut in this system, it is not just the system that is flawed. You're partly at fault as well. I don't mind his bashing the system. But I cannot understand his total shift of blame towards the system and complete exoneration of his incapabilities to cope and adapt to the system. Also, there are many other outstanding products of the system who have "labored" against the system. Sure, we labored. But we didn't quit the system when we figured out it was flawed. What we did was we adapted ourselves to it and either worked around it or worked with it; we did not completely abandon it.
Hmmm...Johnleemk seems like our govt in the case of abandoning flawed projects. How ironic.
And our racial preference system is NOT the same as apartheid. Clearly.
bestcreation, where are you studying or where did you study in the US? Curious.
Oh yay, recom lives! glad to see u guys still post, all in a span of a few hours.
I have so much to say about the affirmative action and sanctification of bumi rights in this country, and our (rather uneducated) economic policies etc etc. But i don't write about them (sans citation! someone needs to teach him MLA!!!! ) until i am completely sure of my facts. I don't think he is bold and courageous, i think he is reckless. Powerful use of the language does not cover the fact that a lot of what he is saying is both unresearched and a blatant display of his age, inexperience and immaturity. The problem with many people in this country is that we are astounded by anything spoken or written fluently and with passion, anf honestly in my opinion, that is where our education system has failed. With regards to critical thinking and rhetorical listening and reading. But then, that's an opinion i will not write too much about until i have something concrete to back up what i am saying (unlike young john lee).
In short, he's just going about it the wrong way, it opens him up to criticism and exposes him for the knowledge he does not have.
I have a sneaky feeling (although the thought annoys me) that he may get himself into the papers soon, or at least get some degree of publicity within the country...I hope for his sake that he sounds more educated then.
bestcreation, where are you studying or where did you study in the US? Curious.
I studied in one of the colleges that johnleemk is planning to apply to.
Actually I think johnleemk is just a guy who couldn't fit into the system, coudln't find any friends and decided to give up on the system. It's easy to critisize and run, much much harder to face adversity and overcome it.
That is why I think people such as Mandela and Gandhi are so rare and respected.
in politics, education, johnleemk chose the easy path and gave up. In my view, that's nothing to be proud off.
My previous post was just emphatizing with what he is going through. Guys, don't defend the system because it's the only system we got. Defend it only if it's worth defending.
Joined: Nov 07, 2005 Posts: 97 Location: Singapore
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject:
I've only read 6 of the pages from his sample chapter and well, he has a long way to go if he plans on getting it published. If that is anywhere near a completed draft (which I think and hope it isn't), it's definitely going to be ridiculed by most people that read it who actually matter. I sent him a long, 3 page email with recommendations and pointed out some of the flaws which he should look at. I hope he's humble enough to listen seriously though because he really has a lot of knowledge gaps in his book (though he may think otherwise). He's a smart kid and I think he'll go far.
I think that he will become less vitriolic as he grows older and realises that hey, the education system isn't perfect and it's very flawed, but so are the American, British, Singaporean, Japanese, and Chinese systems. Each system has it's weaknesses and you can't really say which is better in the end.
Anyone else find it very funny that right after he highlights the low standard of English the teachers have he uses a distinctively Manglish mistake? "Worser still"! I thought it was very ironic
Joined: Jun 17, 2005 Posts: 52 Location: Petaling Jaya, Selangor
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:
guys, he's 15. keep in mind that the 15 year old brain is not exactly fully developed yet. give him a break, i'll take a 15 year old who cares about issues any day.
yes, he might sound arrogant. but that's just the 15 year old mind with a messianic complex speaking. i know how it feels like, i've been through that stage before...but when he grows older and (hopefully) starts to look at both sides of an issue, he may change.
his views may yet be immature, but growing up will cure him of that. it's basically wrong context and wrong timing, but please don't flame him for his choices. i have nothing against people who try to find a niche that suits themselves. it's just that this kinda people need to balance their thinking, otherwise they'll be seen as out of touch with reality.
look, perhaps some of us are extremely good at beating the system, but i don't think we will fully understand HIS environment, HIS bearing, or HIS psychological state of mind. growing up is painful, and even more so if you happen to be more aware than others of certain things. comparing him to a deserter at this time is grossly unsymphatetic. he didn't choose an easy path. he chose an alternative path. whether that's easy or not, we cannot judge. if he wanted it easy he could've just remained ignorant and apathetic about our country. but he didn't. i think that's something we should applaud.
what he needs now is to step into the real world and make some friends. come on, don't compare him with Gandhi and Mandela, at least not yet. he's just....15. who knows what he might become in the future? running? deserting? abandoning? that's a very harsh judgment.
actually, i think he idol-worships lee kuan yew even more. he quotes lee all the time...you see, politicians are good with words. if you happen to be passionate and frenzied, as he is at 15, you'll end up being sucked into their rhetoric. isolation + influence=vitriol. give him time, man.
Joined: Jun 02, 2004 Posts: 143 Location: Singapore
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject:
One thing for sure, he posted his stuff in the wrong place (someplace like Recom should be much much better, hehe).
Well, if you read his work while keeping in mind that he's just ranting for the sake of it then I don't see any problems with it. After all, he doesn't like some aspects of the M'sian educational system and he wants out. It's a free world, so he is entitled to his own choices and opinions, regardless of whether we agree with the decision or not. I didn't like the system much too, but I choose to stay on since the system could be much worse. Think of Rwanda where the education system blatantly incorporates racism and you get the idea. Plus, I always think that we cannot rely solely on the educational system to develop your intellectual self. After all, personal initiative comes first isn't it?
But if you want to take it seriously as a piece of work, then we have big problems. Here I agree with naoj. Mr. lee did expose his lack of knowledge (about certain issues) in his literary work. But an unimportant person indirectly critical of the government getting publicity from the local media? What are the chances of that happening?
Joined: Nov 16, 2003 Posts: 2188 Location: 12 time zones away from People's Republic of Ann Arbor
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
guys, i just want to say that we should criticize his ideas, if need be, not his character. If we didn't know that he's a 15 years old, would we have talked about how immature his ideas are?
I've interacted with him on wikipedia. it's a typical day to come across him on wikipedia while editing malaysian related articles. you should see his contributions to wikipedia and then rethink about what you think of him, without considering his age.
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) until i am completely sure of my facts. I don't think he is bold and courageous, i think he is reckless. Powerful use of the language does not cover the fact that a lot of what he is saying is both unresearched and a blatant display of his age, inexperience and immaturity. The problem with many people in this country is that we are astounded by anything spoken or written fluently and with passion, anf honestly in my opinion, that is where our education system has failed. With regards to critical thinking and rhetorical listening and reading. But then, that's an opinion i will not write too much about until i have something concrete to back up what i am saying (unlike young john lee).
