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nick_khaw
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Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
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 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, you remember what was in my year. I completely forgot about it. Ahahaha. I don't remember doing the incubator question though. But I remember there being an incubator question.
Well, on the forum myself, naoj, lyzzy and one more Malaysian (can't remember the nickname on College Confidential) posted it up and naoj decided to bring it here. It's that simple.
How did you know some did not? Are you assuming or did they state that they did not admit? And even if they don't admit that the system is bad, maybe they don't think the system is bad. Assumptions, assumptions. Such contradictory posts, once again. Here's some good advice for you - Try to be less contradictory. But I'll accept assumptions because humans assume things anyway. Can't really expect ppl not to assume things.
Well, ppl are saying that he shouldn't post on websites where foreigners, who have little, if any, knowledge about what goes on here, are the main participants, and thus, there would hardly be anyone to debate with him. And that's all the "disclosure" we're asking for. To post where ppl can understand and debate his ideas.
Oneforthelord, I agree with you this time about mastery of thoughts. And well put too, I might add. I don't think I've thought of it that way before. |
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Europa
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Joined: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Ladies and gentlemen, I think we're starting to stray from the topic at hand. What Mr. Lee did with his studies is his choice. As we are not familar with the exact circumstances that resulted in his decision, let us give him the benefit of doubt. He may be a person who easily gives up, but why don't we just leave this issue aside and focus on the rest of the big picture? He has made a decision to buck the trend, and that's a pretty hard decision to make. So, IMHO, the debate whether he has made the easier or harder choice is redundant. And if everyone is not finished with debating his personality, go start another thread. If I remember correctly, this thread is to discuss his ideas, not personality and his decision to switch education systems.
| bush wrote: | Nick Khaw's year.......the essay was fairly simple..i recall.....choose one from two questions,the physics of an incubator and the physics of a space shuttle.
It is assesses our ability to apply what we have learned to an unfamiliar situation. |
Well, I sat for the paper too. Actually, if you've read the right things you wouldn't need to apply any knowledge, just regurgitate information. 
I happened to know a bit about the reentry methods of the Apollo and shuttle missions, so I used them as examples in giving my answers. (Apollo: ablative reentry surfaces to remove accumulated heat;Shuttle: Reinforced Carbon Carbon tiles with high melting point that covers the shuttle leading surfaces as part of the Thermal Protection System in preventing their aluminium body from melting and yada yada yada) It's probably not in the mark scheme anyway, but I was told that when the markers give marks, they will award them as long as it's logical.
My point is, if you've read extensively enough, you wouldn't need to apply anything.
Last edited by Europa on Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Europa
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Joined: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops, forgot to insert my own comments.
BTW, look at who's our newest member of the forum. 
P.S. He's in here somewhere now. |
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johnleemk
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Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: Greetings... |
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Courtesy of a helpful admin, I have finally been able to confirm my ReCom account.  Now for some damage control before my reputation gets dragged through the mud even more...
| Quote: | | While some of it may be veritable criticism, i find his methods wrong. To post something like this on an american forum where most of them are ignorant of our system anyway. |
I'm not sure what your point is. CC is just one of a few dozen online communities I frequent, and I've never tried to raise obscure Malaysian issues there. Problems like ranking-obsessed universities are valid topics for the international forum of a website devoted to higher education.
| Quote: | | To generalize about all of our graduate being incapable to think due to incapitation by our education system. |
I never generalised about university graduates. I was specifically discussing high/secondary school students. I am specifically referring to the *current* curriculum and syllabus. The old system was flawed, but a lot better than what we have now. I have read textbooks from the 60s, 70s and 90s. All of them are much better than what we have now.
| Quote: | | To criticize bumputra rights without any prior research and citation. |
I will point you to two pieces of my writing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_153_of_the_Constitution_of_Malaysia (has 40+ footnotes)
http://www.bakrimusa.com/archives/far-from-great-expectations#comment-806 (cites the Reid Commission's report)
I have never ever questioned the NEP. I challenge anyone reading this to ferret out a comment of mine that argues the NEP should never have been implemented. The NEP was a correct and necessary policy to address the economic imbalance. Article 153 (as it stands), however, is a different matter (as I explain in my comment at Bakri Musa's blog).
| Quote: | | But personally, i am mad not so much because of all this but simply because despite its flaws i feel some degree of loyalty to Malaysia and this guy with his immature rants (in my opinion only...) has touched a raw nerve. |
Kindly point out where I have criticised Malaysia. I consider it dangerous to entwine a country's government with its people (although the two are of course inextricably linked). If I criticise Bush's PATRIOT Act or Blair's OSA, does this mean I have touched a raw nerve among the American or British people?
| Quote: | | I admire him for his courage, yet at the same time disappointed in his disdain for anything Malaysian. |
I'd like to find out where I've repeatedly disparaged "anything" Malaysian. Besides, let's face it - most Malaysian things aren't that great. (How many times have we said when referring to a local product, "Aiya, Malaysian mah..."?) The food and people and oil are probably our country's greatest resources. (But the government has rather squandered them, IMO.)
| Quote: | | i believe issue regarding malaysia should be said amongst us, and not to the whole world. yes, malaysia has issues but that does not mean we should let the whole world knows... |
I beg to differ (although looking back, you are of course correct that CC ain't the best place to discuss rather obscure issues). Internal pressure alone will never do away with our problems. External forces are always the most powerful ones. The American Civil War was won (and lost) based on the decision of the British and French not to aid the CSA. In South Africa, apartheid was broken not just by Nelson Mandela but by the international community's strong disapproval of the Whites' policies. (It still impresses me that South African airliners had to take a very very long-winded route to London, sticking to international airspace, because most countries refused to grant South Africa access to their airspace.)
| Quote: | | im looking at it from two perspectives - tourism and practicality. |
Apologies for the sarcasm, but yes, tourists will flee the country in droves if they knew how bad our education system has become. Myanmar, Singapore and Cambodia remain popular tourist destinations despite their reputation for outright disregard of human rights. And trade with China continues growing despite their well-known cracking down on dissidents. I hardly think a bad education system would dissuade tourists from visiting Malaysia. And expatriates? Well, I find it hard to imagine an expatriate student in a government school.
| Quote: | | from the practical point of view, he aint achieving anything neither will the system change as a results from such forums. |
I'm only 15. What else can I do? Even as a university student, I would be bound by the UUCA from participating in political activities. (Not that I would actually do that - the DAP and PKR don't appeal to me.)
| Quote: | | there places where he can simply bring up the points and argue/debate/discuss about it - where i believe in a long run, may benefit malaysia (as in creating awareness amongst us that BN suxx). |
Er...I'm rather active in spreading the BN-hate amongst the blogosphere. I've become sort of notorious for my constant criticism of both the opposition and government. Just search Malaysia Today for "johnleemk", or read my blog archives.
| Quote: | | Yes, there are people who worship BN, but these people are no better than people who worship the opposition eg. mr. johnleemk who seems to be embarking on a full-fledged idolization of Lim Kit Siang (look at the quotes, the comments, the posts...) |
Uh...where? Kindly point me in their direction. In the mean time, some food for thought:
http://www.iroatm.cjb.net/forums/index.php?fid=5&pid=90
http://iroatm.cjb.net/display.php?id=24
http://iroatm.cjb.net/display.php?id=16
http://iroatm.cjb.net/display.php?id=14
| Quote: | | we should give ourselves more credit; for a 48 year-old nation with such disparate groups of inhabitants we are doing just fine, by almost any measure. |
In the long term I'm not very convinced of this. We're moving in the opposite direction we should be headed, IMO. My seniors' history textbooks never had the words "ketuanan Melayu" in them before. Mine do. They also discuss the defense of "maruah bangsa, agama dan negara". (Whose bangsa? Whose agama? Whose negara?) The BN of today is very different from the BN of twenty years ago and even more starkly different from the Alliance of 1955.
| Quote: | | But I cannot understand his total shift of blame towards the system and complete exoneration of his incapabilities to cope and adapt to the system. |
This criticism has been leveled at me before. I'm not thinking about myself - I'm thinking about the people who, even if they wanted to, simply can't adapt to the system. I've seen quite a few people who memorise like hell and still fail on a regular basis, while others effortlessly breeze through, either by not studying at all (not to brag, but I've scored Bs without picking up a textbook while my friends struggled to score 38/100 by attending daily tuition classes) or by going through every single workbook ever published (like some of my other friends).
| Quote: | | What we did was we adapted ourselves to it and either worked around it or worked with it; we did not completely abandon it. |
But I *am* working around it. I've spent nine years in the traditional system and traditional curriculum, seven of those in a public school. I've sat for the PTS, UPSR and PMR. I've worked pretty well with it. If I really gave up entirely, I would have given all of these exams the finger and told the school to go to hell. But I haven't. My father offered me the opportunity to sit for the SAT and O Levels for the heck of it. (Er...not to brag about my family's finances or anything - we aren't rich by any means, and I've grown up as a penny-pincher because both of my parents hail from very impoverished backgrounds.) Considering my results, which entitle me to admission for A Level courses, I think a rational weighing of the costs and benefits (two years doing forms four and five vs two years doing A Levels) would show the *rational* course of action is to work around the system.
| Quote: | | And our racial preference system is NOT the same as apartheid. Clearly. |
It's not. But the ketuanan Melayu philosophy is. It's not the NEP or policies designed to aid the poor Bumiputra that gnaw on me. It's ketuanan Melayu, and its insidious entrance into our KBSM that worries me.
| Quote: | | Actually I think johnleemk is just a guy who couldn't fit into the system, coudln't find any friends and decided to give up on the system. It's easy to critisize and run, much much harder to face adversity and overcome it. |
Therefore I should intentionally choose the harder path, even if it leads to the same destination. It's one thing to choose the harder path knowing you'll be better off for it. It's another thing to choose it just for the sake of the challenge.
| Quote: | | I think that he will become less vitriolic as he grows older and realises that hey, the education system isn't perfect and it's very flawed, but so are the American, British, Singaporean, Japanese, and Chinese systems. Each system has it's weaknesses and you can't really say which is better in the end. |
LOL, definitely big ditto there. Standardised testing is pervading the American education system. The British A Levels are being heavily criticised for having ostensibly lowered their standards. The Japanese education system teaches by rote memorisation. The Singaporean system emphasises exams over learning. What worries me is that it appears the Malaysian system has absorbed the worst parts of all these education systems. Every one of these problems I just named appear to be present in our school system.
| Quote: | | actually, i think he idol-worships lee kuan yew even more. he quotes lee all the time...you see, politicians are good with words. if you happen to be passionate and frenzied, as he is at 15, you'll end up being sucked into their rhetoric. isolation + influence=vitriol. give him time, man. |
He makes excellent points - that's why I quote him. Although I don't idolise any particular people, I especially admire him and Churchill, despite the fact that both of them turned out to be rather racist. Let's face it, these men went through hell and back to build and defend their countries - there's nothing wrong with patterning ourselves after them in that case. Anyway, as I've said in some of my links above, Lee has shown himself to be a racist - plain and clear. His comments about the Bell Curve are enough proof of that. But that doesn't invalidate the majority of his comments about Malaysia.
| Quote: | | Probably because of his behaviour which made him someone without friends. I mean how many of us actually bother to spend so much time editing online articles when we were 15 or younger, we would most probably be lepaking around experiencing life. |
LOL, I do lepak. It's called school. I estimate at least 60% of my time in school has been spent joking around. I also frequent shopping centres. And I don't recall ever saying I had no friends - this seems to be an unsubstantiated presumption. I have several friends and plenty more acquaintances. I may be an introvert, but I'm not an island of solitude.
| Quote: | | bringing the above example into the discussion, i dont think any of us should let ppl of the globe that malaysian education suxx, that malaysian graduates dont know shit, etc. first you are undermining the good malaysian graduates. secondly, the image of not just the country, but the citizens themselves are tarnished. |
Anyone who jumps to such conclusions based on the rantings of a 15 year old ought to have their gullibility meter examined. Experience matters, not gossip.
| Quote: | | I was speaking about his general behaviour, it is not a common thing for people at his age to do such things, such as bashing melayu and all things melayu, idolising Mr Harry Lee etc. That most likely explains why he doesn't have many friends. |
Since when have I bashed "all things melayu"? This seems to be an unsubstantiated personal attack, IMO. Show me where I have bashed Malays or their culture. naoj is a stickler for sources, so where are yours? If I were a Malay basher, gosh, I would probably have hated my experience in primary school, going to class with Malays and Indonesians from the squatter kampung. And I definitely wouldn't be hanging out at a forum where I appear to one of the few, if not the only, non-Malay.
| Quote: | | I wonder what made him so different from other 15-year-old M'sians? Did he tell his parents that he wants to drop out of school after PMR? And did they approve of his actions? |
I did not say I want to drop out after PMR. My father suggested I take the SAT and O Levels for the heck of it (yeah, we're an odd family). Based on my results, a rational conclusion would be to drop out to do my A Levels instead of spend two years in forms four and five (versus two years in the international equivalent of form six).
| Quote: | | People like me prefer to spend my time in high school doing extracurricular activities. |
I have been living, sleeping, eating and breathing scouting since form one. I have attended every camp I was eligible to attend until the middle of this year. You know why? Because my damn bloody school kicked out my scoutmasters. And why was this? Because the school refused to allow us to meet on Saturdays, the only time when they are free. It's not enough that they donated their time, effort and even some of their money to training us. Now they have to sacrifice their work and studies as well. This, along with the crazy crap I've gone through preparing for the PMR, could have very well been the last straw for me.
| Quote: | | Yesterday night I watched "A Beautiful Mind"... A sad story about a genius who wanted to be the best genius that ever lived. It kinda struck a chord in me. I would urge everyone to watch it, but I digressed. |
That's my favourite movie.  I must have watched it two or three times. Russell Crowe should have gotten a damn Oscar for his acting.
| Quote: | | Anyway, if he can tarnish Malaysia's reputation in such a way, I doubt we will welcome such rakyat. What makes him think that other countries will be better for him? Come on! Malaysia might not be the best, but it is still, much better than some others. |
American satirist Al Franken puts it succintly: There are two kinds of patriotism. One is the "small kid" patriotism - you think your daddy is better and greater than everyone else, and whoever disagrees be damned. The other is "adult" patriotism - you don't think your daddy is infallible, but he's your damn dad, and you love him, warts and all. However, despite all your respect for him, you are not averse to disagreeing with him, because you know he is sometimes in the wrong.
Look at the content, not the language. I rant like a 15 year old, but (again, not to brag), I have very different things to say than some crazy Aussie/NZ Malaysian migrants who have been constantly flaming Malaysia in the blogosphere. They have nothing to say except "Malaysia sucks". I say, "Malaysia sucks, and here's why and how to fix it". One is bullshit. The other is constructive criticism.
| Quote: | | What has he done to encourage change? Wrote a very angry ranting 'book'? Posted comments in Jeff Ooi, Lim Kit Siang, Bakri Musa? Posted comments on collegeconfidential, an forum that's designed to help college admissions in the U.S.???? Created his forum for discussion? How does this in anyway help the Malaysia education system or anything? |
I'm a 15 year old. Honestly, what do you expect me to do? Form an NGO? Take to the streets? Plot an assassination? (This is oddly reminiscent of how the opposition behaves - constant criticism without any alternative suggestions.)
| Quote: | | And if you are reading this: Go do something productive. Organize a play at your school. Engage your friends in some healthy activities. |
Er...yes, because "subversive" and "seditious" thinking is always welcomed in a public institution. I'd be surprised if my play didn't get me hauled in front of the principal. Healthy activities? Like what? Playing basketball? I do that every Friday/Thursday. Lepaking? Same thing. Extra-curricular stuff? Yeah, like my teachers will appreciate a "free spirit". Not all of us have understanding teachers available. Those who do try to understand are way too busy to deal with me, and there's no freaking way in hell that they or my seniors will allow me to take the initiative to try something new. My school probably stands out in that "small kid" loyalty/discipline is not only encouraged but mandated. In a sense, it's like a microcosm of Malaysian politics.
| Quote: | | Anyway, I think it's all good for him now as he is no longer a Malaysian citizen. In my opinion, he shall not claim that he is a Malaysian at all. He is free to criticize anything. But from what I see, it is not our loss to have lesser fellow Malaysians with attitude like that. |
My IC is still blue. And I don't have a green card, let alone American citizenship.
| Quote: | | Oh, I assume that he's gonna acquire the American citizenship after reading the posting on collegeconfidential.com. He's moving to the U.S. and applying to the schools as a citizen. Something along the line... |
Even if I had a green card, it does not make me a citizen. I only receive the same treatment as a citizen. (Except no suffrage for me. If you want that, you have to head for Australia or NZ.)
| Quote: | | He writes books that will rant about our education system, but none of the kids from the rural areas will ever see that book, if they can read it. |
Because they are the Minister of Education/influential businessmen/leaders of prominent NGOs...right.
| Quote: | | Oh yeah, I know about the arduous process of writing a book. But, all I'm saying is, he NEEDS SOURCES. Every good book needs a source. Sure, what he writes could be articulated better, but that improves with drafts. But at the very core of it, he needs sources! Sources legitimates his claims. |
IIRC, I stated that it's a book based on my experiences that I'm hoping to expand to include the experiences of other Malaysian students. So my sources are the men and women and children on the street. Or in academic parlance, this book would represent a primary source. I'm working on digging up published material that criticises the education system, but it's a bit...tough. Most people seem to dodge the problems I discuss or only devote a single, generalising sentence about "rote memorisation" in their critiques.
| Quote: | | Actually, you can easily get tutors for O-levels in the klang valley. |
Really? Couldn't find any.  And anyway, I bet they would have been a waste of money. I've always disdained tuition for people who are capable of handling the subject matter. If you're disadvantaged, tuition is understandable, but if you are competent, you shouldn't need tuition to bring out the best in you. I self-studied for the O Levels.
| Quote: | | I'm familiar with the process of writing with sources. Not every one has that style though, and John hasn't learnt how to start with sources. |
Actually I have. School is supposed to teach you that, but they're not very good at it. >.< I learnt it from Wikipedia. Go figure.
| Quote: | | Sometimes I write my essays before I have sources, whacking out main points based on something I've thought of and then go looking for sources and references to see if my points are arguable. Other times I have no ideas or points and so I go and do a literature review before I start writing. I find that it's easier to write and then look for sources because you already have a idea. Sometimes, you end up dragging out an idea you don't really like from your sources. |
Yay, somebody who understands what I'm doing.
Last edited by johnleemk on Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gonjeng
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Joined: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 380
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| digimushu wrote: | | Truly, he must be amused reading the posts... |
hahaha you got that right!!! well if he's not, i am...
the discussion started with his decision of quitting school and the fact that he post the right stuff but at a wrong place... basically it revolved around the choice he made, esp at a very young age (though youngyew, i dont think this is character bashing... well that's from my perspective ) then we have to party sort of blaming each other right/wrong hehehe...
though one thing i wanna correct is that, he did not think the system is flawed. rather, he thinks that the system is a failure... (go read the cc forum again) flaw and fails have two different meaning, ya know! so if you guys are quoting his opinion, pls use the word 'fail'. dont mix the two up
as for being practical, maybe by the end of the discussion, this thread will be a good source of information to those who are thinking of following the same steps as mr lee did - the malaysian education is a failure and one is better off studying on his/her own, than going through it...
so let the discussion stay on track, okay? hence, this thread wont be another 'talk cock' thread - as however, you guys define 'talk cock' |
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bush
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Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 1361
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Where did I get those impressions?
For the way some of the articles are written and some of the replies at college confidential.
Friends?
From College confidential too.....Was it couldn't make any friends in a chinese school? |
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johnleemk
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Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 194
Location: Malaysia
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For the way some of the articles are written and some of the replies at college confidential. |
LOL, then those impressions are quite mistaken.
| Quote: | | From College confidential too.....Was it couldn't make any friends in a chinese school? |
I couldn't make any friends in the private school. The quote was taken out of context. |
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bush
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Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 1361
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| johnleemk wrote: | | Quote: | | For the way some of the articles are written and some of the replies at college confidential. |
LOL, then those impressions are quite mistaken.
| Quote: | | From College confidential too.....Was it couldn't make any friends in a chinese school? |
I couldn't make any friends in the private school. The quote was taken out of context. |
You might not have any ill intentions while writing the articles, but some of the words which you use can be quite strong. |
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nick_khaw
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Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Well, at least he's here now and giving his two cents.
And, working around the system isn't the same as leaving it. Working around the system would mean finding a flaw of the system and capitalizing on it. Working around the system would be to accept its flaws and then choose another option to deal with it. Working with, I'm sure you're intelligent enough to qualify what I mean by that.
Leaving, my good John, is a different thing altogether. |
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Europa
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Joined: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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nick_khaw, mind helping us lesser mortals in understanding what exactly is your point?
BTW johnleemk, impressive rebuttal there but whose quotes belong to who? Sorry about that, but it's not you against all of recom here.
Digressing a bit here, but as for some great leaders being racist, it's not something that biographers would want to put into their idolised account of them right? http://www.crichton-official.com/fear/index.html
Go and see how many prominent personalities supported eugenics. |
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nick_khaw
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Joined: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |
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Er, basically, what I'm trying to say is there's a difference between working around a system and leaving a system.
Working around means still being in the system but using it to your advantage.
Leaving is just leaving.
I hope that clears things up. |
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Maxforce
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Joined: Oct 29, 2005
Posts: 241
Location: Klang, Selangor
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Alright John. Glad you could join us here. |
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digimushu
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Joined: Mar 21, 2004
Posts: 1211
Location: Blacksburg , US
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Welcome to ReCOm John, and have a pleasant stay. |
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oneforthelord
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Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| johnleemk wrote: |
| oneforthelord wrote: |
I'm familiar with the process of writing with sources. Not every one has that style though, and John hasn't learnt how to start with sources. |
Actually I have. School is supposed to teach you that, but they're not very good at it. >.< I learnt it from Wikipedia. Go figure. |
Neither the Malaysian system nor the Singaporean system teach you that until at least after O levels or SPM. Most people here in sg only learn to do so after entering uni  |
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Europa
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Joined: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks nick, the second explaination was far less confusing.
oneforthelord, what about the Project Work course they have for A-Levels in S'pore? |
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