Joined: Nov 07, 2005 Posts: 97 Location: Singapore
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:53 pm Post subject:
Europa: I said after O levels mah. Anyway, I went through that lame rubbish Inter-disciplinary Project work myself and I didn't really learn how to go do research. Only in uni did I really learn that and that's the case for many of my friends.
Joined: Oct 26, 2003 Posts: 2601 Location: Connecticut
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:03 am Post subject:
johnleemk..
You did the right thing. I can't even begin to say how right you are in doing this and how much attention you had sucessfully generated for Malaysian to ponder upon its failing Education System.
Two Thumbs up!
Anyways I'm just curious about how you are pursuing the o-level..
Did you enroll into an International School with British curriculums?
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Greetings...
johnleemk wrote:
Quote:
What has he done to encourage change? Wrote a very angry ranting 'book'? Posted comments in Jeff Ooi, Lim Kit Siang, Bakri Musa? Posted comments on collegeconfidential, an forum that's designed to help college admissions in the U.S.???? Created his forum for discussion? How does this in anyway help the Malaysia education system or anything?
I'm a 15 year old. Honestly, what do you expect me to do? Form an NGO? Take to the streets? Plot an assassination? (This is oddly reminiscent of how the opposition behaves - constant criticism without any alternative suggestions.)
Quote:
And if you are reading this: Go do something productive. Organize a play at your school. Engage your friends in some healthy activities.
Er...yes, because "subversive" and "seditious" thinking is always welcomed in a public institution. I'd be surprised if my play didn't get me hauled in front of the principal. Healthy activities? Like what? Playing basketball? I do that every Friday/Thursday. Lepaking? Same thing. Extra-curricular stuff? Yeah, like my teachers will appreciate a "free spirit". Not all of us have understanding teachers available. Those who do try to understand are way too busy to deal with me, and there's no freaking way in hell that they or my seniors will allow me to take the initiative to try something new. My school probably stands out in that "small kid" loyalty/discipline is not only encouraged but mandated. In a sense, it's like a microcosm of Malaysian politics.
This attidude is so typically..... Malaysian! And I say this out of exasperation! Making a whole bunch of excuses on why they/ you CANNOT do something, never focusing on what you can do. I'm sure you heard about people complaining about the ISA or decline in English language or the lack of arts etc etc etc, but they never actually DO anything.
You CAN do something - you are fifteen and you can think. I'm not asking you to form an NGO, but just rather, just a student-run activity... like, I don't know.. political awareness groups.... you probably have better ideas than I do, since this is more your thing.
And I DID give you some ideas - I mentioned go and produce a play and so forth... and you can probably think of something better because I don't have similar interests as you do.
And there WILL be teachers who would be supportive, and I hardly think that it's fair of you to generalize like that. Even in my quite crappy-government school, there would be one or two teachers in the midst of 50 teachers or so, who would take their time to help a student. It's hypocrisy to think the worst of everyone and everything if you don't even TRY to do anything (and I say this because the only extracurricular activity you have mentioned is playing basketball) .
This is where Malaysian students and American students differ - American students are more likely to take initiative to come up with student activities. Whereas most (but not all) Malaysians are more likely to be passive, waiting for someone else to take action, from a society, rather than being the one leading it.
Joined: Oct 29, 2005 Posts: 241 Location: Klang, Selangor
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:51 am Post subject:
lyzzy,
John IS doing something. He IS raising awareness. Though I think he felt his efforts are still insufficient due to the limitations of his age and circumstances. Hence he provided the REASONS. IMO, those are NOT excuses, but simply VALID reasons.
Yes, there are RARE exceptions - good teachers. But like I said, rare. I remember when I used to really sux at English. Perhaps I do now, but my exams are over ;p. The one teacher whom I gave credit for my distinction in 1119 is my tuition teacher (She was teaching in an International School). Most teachers in school do not bother about the students. They just come to class, bla bla, then cabut. They dont even care if you pass or fail, save for increasing the statistics. (Bad repo for sckool).
In fact, most of them are already discouraged. I was quite close to a number of teachers when I was back in school and THEY themselves think that the system is lousy. But too many red tapes. They can't do anything. Proposals were made and rejected. No one wants to hear their say (Proper procedurial channels). They felt ignored, abandoned. Their pay increment sux - back then was RM65 per year (for degree holders).
I have no idea how American students behave, but could it be the environment made them more proactive than Malaysian students?
Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 194 Location: Malaysia
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject:
nick_khaw wrote:
Leaving, my good John, is a different thing altogether.
Well, that was a peripheral point. My main point - that weighing the costs and benefits indicate going for the A Levels would be the rational choice - stands.
Europa wrote:
BTW johnleemk, impressive rebuttal there but whose quotes belong to who? Sorry about that, but it's not you against all of recom here.
Sorry, I was in a rush that night.
oneforthelord wrote:
Neither the Malaysian system nor the Singaporean system teach you that until at least after O levels or SPM.
Really? That would indicate at least something has improved since your day. Teachers will grouch about "membuat rujukan" when it's time to do kerja kursus. Of course, many students make up their rujukan, but it's still *something*.
Thirdshifter wrote:
Anyways I'm just curious about how you are pursuing the o-level..
Did you enroll into an International School with British curriculums?
Nope. Self-study all the way (while "preparing" for my PMR).
lyzzy wrote:
I'm not asking you to form an NGO, but just rather, just a student-run activity... like, I don't know.. political awareness groups.... you probably have better ideas than I do, since this is more your thing.
I don't have any "political awareness groups" per se, because my school is very strict on this sort of thing, but if you expect me to be so heavily following Malaysian politics without somehow involving my friends... They're certainly more knowledgeable about current events in Malaysia than they used to be.
Iyzzy wrote:
And I DID give you some ideas - I mentioned go and produce a play and so forth... and you can probably think of something better because I don't have similar interests as you do.
I did make several presentations for my English class on the state of Malaysian education (and some assorted other political issues) that had my classmates laughing like hell. My teacher told me not to do them again, though. As I said, my school is strict - even if she favoured my points, she wouldn't want to anger the discipline teacher or principal, both of whom are very very strict.
Iyzzy wrote:
Even in my quite crappy-government school, there would be one or two teachers in the midst of 50 teachers or so, who would take their time to help a student.
Of course there exist such teachers everywhere. But the problem is that there are so few of them that students who really really need their help would be taking up most of their time. You don't expect me to ask a teacher for help on a project while she's tutoring Form 5 students for their SPM, do you?
And it's not just the lack of support - as I said, my school bureaucracy is a real hardass on "discipline", so anything that could even come close to being regarded as indiscipline or subversion would be cracked down on. Honestly, if a prefect who was running back to school from lunch in the rain got caned just for having his shirt untucked, what can someone putting on a play about the government's excesses or incompetent teachers expect?
Iyzzy wrote:
(and I say this because the only extracurricular activity you have mentioned is playing basketball) .
I mentioned scouting. I was a diehard scout, especially because the scoutmasters encouraged us to plan our own activities and be independent instead of depending on them or the teachers to plan things for us. Then the school kicked the scoutmasters out before they could even get the senior scouts up to speed. It's a long story, really, because my school is a *very* new school - our scout troop started only last year, and was barely off the ground. (The first form five class - all of 40+ students - just sat for their SPM.)
Maxforce wrote:
I have no idea how American students behave, but could it be the environment made them more proactive than Malaysian students?
Based solely on what my American friends have told me, that would be correct. The environment here is generally very unconducive when it comes to involving students - if any are involved, it's typically only those who are elected into positions of authority in clubs, or the most senior form five students. If you want to start a new club, you have to dig up a teacher who will want to advise you (not easy, because most teachers are comfortable sticking to the clubs they currently advise), and go through a lot of other red tape with the school bureaucracy. The process expects you to request a teacher from the school to form the club and then wait for you to go and join up.
Edit:
Sorry, seems PHPBB uses a different form of BBcode than I am accustomed to.
Last edited by johnleemk on Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Mar 17, 2005 Posts: 107 Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject:
Oh yeah, we should always try to make the most practical decision we can. And if, in your case, the most practical decision is to give up and quit on the system and do O-Levels, it is justified.
Joined: Feb 06, 2004 Posts: 452 Location: california
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:10 am Post subject:
Maxforce wrote:
lyzzy,
John IS doing something. He IS raising awareness. Though I think he felt his efforts are still insufficient due to the limitations of his age and circumstances. Hence he provided the REASONS. IMO, those are NOT excuses, but simply VALID reasons.
I agree that he IS doing something. In fact, i think it speaks of great personal conviction to do what he has done. The impact, and effect of that action is something that he alone could assess and take responsibility for. That is not to say that i think EVERYBODY else who stayed in the education system are not as good as or as motivated as him. We don't get to choose the circumstances we are thrust into, but we all make our own choices about how to deal with these circumstances. We are the ones who are going to live with them.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Somewhere Down Under
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:
Wow…. This Johnleemk must be some one….
Well.. from my limited interactions with him in this forum… I would say that he is such a cocky lad… I would agree with Naoj in saying that Johnleemk has too much confidence…. And he is an extremely twisted guy…. I look at his replies to my postings (in Political Crisis in The Phillipines - http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2893 )
And look more into his comments on that topic…. and man… what can I say…..? Look at his condescending remarks about Raja Petra Kamaruddin…
And wow… oh… he write articles in wikipedia …… MMMmmmm….. Sometimes I think he spends too much time in cyber forums…
Perhaps he needs to get a real life…besides studying, a 15 (must be approaching 16 now…) year old shouldn’t be spending too much time in front of a computer……
I would say that Johnleemk needs to get a girlfriend real fast.
But, in as much as I hate to admit, as a kid, Johnleemk is exceptional…. Never mind his outrageous and condescending comments… Johnleemk is an exceptional person… even though his comments are crude and utterly rubbish, at least for a 15 year old, he his aware of current events and many social issues that a normal 15 year old wouldn’t even imagine.
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 1544 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject:
Rinke wrote:
Wow…. This Johnleemk must be some one….
Well.. from my limited interactions with him in this forum… I would say that he is such a cocky lad… I would agree with Naoj in saying that Johnleemk has too much confidence…. And he is an extremely twisted guy…. I look at his replies to my postings (in Political Crisis in The Phillipines - http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2893 )
And look more into his comments on that topic…. and man… what can I say…..? Look at his condescending remarks about Raja Petra Kamaruddin…
And wow… oh… he write articles in wikipedia …… MMMmmmm….. Sometimes I think he spends too much time in cyber forums…
Perhaps he needs to get a real life…besides studying, a 15 (must be approaching 16 now…) year old shouldn’t be spending too much time in front of a computer……
I would say that Johnleemk needs to get a girlfriend real fast.
But, in as much as I hate to admit, as a kid, Johnleemk is exceptional…. Never mind his outrageous and condescending comments… Johnleemk is an exceptional person… even though his comments are crude and utterly rubbish, at least for a 15 year old, he his aware of current events and many social issues that a normal 15 year old wouldn’t even imagine.
We would like to remind fellow recommers that personal attack is forbidden in ReCom.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 75 Location: Somewhere Down Under
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:
Youngyew,
I would like to imagine that my comments are critical observations, and given this topic, my comments are valid.
Perhaps you and the rest of our respected moderators should study the how politicians UK and Australia (and even in US) in their parliaments or house of reps debate matters of national interests. Look closely at the Hansard or proceedings; and I bet it will be difficult for viewers or readers to disentangle pure topical debates versus ad hominem attacks. In particular when debating, attacks on the credibility of the debater (which is valid and generally accepted) may sometimes be construed as ad hominem.
Now, in this case, since the topic is about that person, so comments on that person is a valid topical debate; even though moderators may view this as personal attacks.
Nevertheless, I would, in the future refrain from targeting particular fellow recommers if that is the wish of the moderator(s).
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 1544 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject:
Rinke wrote:
Youngyew,
I would like to imagine that my comments are critical observations, and given this topic, my comments are valid.
Perhaps you and the rest of our respected moderators should study the how politicians UK and Australia (and even in US) in their parliaments or house of reps debate matters of national interests. Look closely at the Hansard or proceedings; and I bet it will be difficult for viewers or readers to disentangle pure topical debates versus ad hominem attacks. In particular when debating, attacks on the credibility of the debater (which is valid and generally accepted) may sometimes be construed as ad hominem.
Now, in this case, since the topic is about that person, so comments on that person is a valid topical debate; even though moderators may view this as personal attacks.
Nevertheless, I would, in the future refrain from targeting particular fellow recommers if that is the wish of the moderator(s).
Thanks a lot Rinke.
Everyone would have their own view of the characteristic of fellow recommers - I can certainly feel who's racist, who's patriotic, who's dumb, who's egoistic, who's kind and who's obnoxious here. But then again, it's really inappropriate for us to discuss or attack a recommer in a thread. It serves no purpose other than to incite flaming war.
This thread started out when John wasn't a recommer yet, so the moderators didn't see it as a "personal attack". But a few days later he joined this forum and gave his rebuttal. Since then this thread has cooled down, and we moved on to other discussions.
What we don't want to see, is to turn this thread into "John-bashing" arena. Whatever hatred or dislike you harbour towards anyone, you can vent it in your personal blog or any personal correspondence. But here in ReCom, we would like to keep it free from personal attack towards any fellow recommers as it's really not beneficial towards the whole forum.
p/s: You said that this thread was meant to discuss John, hence the appropriateness of the post. However, I have never endorsed the attacking of John in the first place, if you read my other post in this thread.
Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 194 Location: Malaysia
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:10 am Post subject:
Rinke wrote:
Wow…. This Johnleemk must be some one….
Well.. from my limited interactions with him in this forum… I would say that he is such a cocky lad… I would agree with Naoj in saying that Johnleemk has too much confidence…. And he is an extremely twisted guy…. I look at his replies to my postings (in Political Crisis in The Phillipines - http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2893 )
And look more into his comments on that topic…. and man… what can I say…..? Look at his condescending remarks about Raja Petra Kamaruddin…
(The latter is so incendiary that even the famously pro-free speech RPK removed it from the website. It's just the tip of the iceberg -- I remember even worse debates than that which he has deleted.)
Quote:
And wow… oh… he write articles in wikipedia …… MMMmmmm….. Sometimes I think he spends too much time in cyber forums…
Perhaps he needs to get a real life…besides studying, a 15 (must be approaching 16 now…) year old shouldn’t be spending too much time in front of a computer……
I would say that Johnleemk needs to get a girlfriend real fast.
Because my peers are all not spending time in front of their computers... Besides, what makes you think my whole life is spent on the internet? Encyclopaedia articles don't appear from the ether -- somebody has to research them.
Quote:
But, in as much as I hate to admit, as a kid, Johnleemk is exceptional…. Never mind his outrageous and condescending comments…
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Form an NGO? Take to the streets? Plot an assassination? (This is oddly reminiscent of how the opposition behaves - constant criticism without any alternative suggestions.)
